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razzmatazz
Go Habs Go! Vive le CH!
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 1632
Location: Burnaby, B.C.
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 Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:08 am Post subject: |
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| IMO had Burke been quicker to realize that Cloutier wasn't "the man", they may well have won a Cup... |
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the New Cunning Linguist
Like a good neighbor, but not
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 1628
Location: I'm here, aren't I?
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:14 am Post subject: |
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| razzmatazz wrote: |
| IMO had Burke been quicker to realize that Cloutier wasn't "the man", they may well have won a Cup... |
That presumes that another GM would have wanted Cloutier enough to give up something in return. And knowing how inflated Crawford's view was of Cloutier, it stands to reason that BB would have wanted something substantial in return.
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... Because the old one, is well, old.
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Bosc Ulrich II
OTP Resident Historian
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 3204
Location: Sweetest lid in the league
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:07 am Post subject: |
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| the New Cunning Linguist wrote: |
| That presumes that another GM would have wanted Cloutier enough to give up something in return. |
Crawford wasn't working for Deano at that point, so no, they couldn't have gotten anything in return.
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the New Cunning Linguist
Like a good neighbor, but not
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 1628
Location: I'm here, aren't I?
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:26 am Post subject: |
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| Bosc Ulrich II wrote: |
| the New Cunning Linguist wrote: |
| That presumes that another GM would have wanted Cloutier enough to give up something in return. |
Crawford wasn't working for Deano at that point, so no, they couldn't have gotten anything in return. |
Precisely... And I wouldn't be surprised to hear that other GMs saw goaltending as that team's weakness and probably believed that the best way to improve the fortunes of their own teams against the WCE-Jovo-Ohlund-Salo Nucks was to keep Cloutier right where he was... 
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... Because the old one, is well, old.
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Jyrki21
Rebel Sell + Moneyball = Life
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 1819
Location: Ottawa, ON
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| the New Cunning Linguist wrote: |
| That presumes that another GM would have wanted Cloutier enough to give up something in return. And knowing how inflated Crawford's view was of Cloutier, it stands to reason that BB would have wanted something substantial in return. |
If Crawford held enough sway in the conversation, they would hold out for Crosby. After all, in Crawford-land, when you already have the best goaltender in the league, you don't give him up easy!
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saskhab
'03-'04 Goalie Profiles Coming Soon!
Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 3359
Location: Saskatoon!
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:53 am Post subject: |
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It's too presumptous to put it all on Crawford for the Cloutier-love. At any point in that time, Burke could've overuled him. The coach's responsibility is to the players that are provided to him, the GM's responsibility is to assemble a group that can win.
It's only Crawford's fault if you think the team could've won the Cup with Hedberg, Skudra, Auld, or Essensa as opposed to Cloutier.
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"Oh my God. There she is. Lovely Sally Slater. I should speak to her. But what the hell can I say? Anything that doesn't mention that I masturbate over her memory is probably a good idea."
- Mark Corrigan, Peep Show |
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Av-merican
Un-Tenured Professor of Hockey
Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 1943
Location: Denver
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Can't just blame Clouts and Crow's man-love for him...the Canucks never could put it all together in the postseason. I suppose you COULD blame Clouts for that stupid-ass goal he gave up to Lidstrom from half-ice, but for the most part the WCE never did well in the postseason. Now while the Sedins did come through in the postseason they never had an ideal linemate and were still for the most part putting together their games still yet. If both lines produced I think the Clouts question gets mitigated at least somewhat. |
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razzmatazz
Go Habs Go! Vive le CH!
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 1632
Location: Burnaby, B.C.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Except that back then Burke wasn't operating in a cap system; he could have simply released Cloutier and either signed an expensive goalie in the summer or traded the future for a goalie that would have put them over the top... |
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Bosc Ulrich II
OTP Resident Historian
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 3204
Location: Sweetest lid in the league
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| razzmatazz wrote: |
| Except that back then Burke wasn't operating in a cap system; he could have simply released Cloutier and either signed an expensive goalie in the summer or traded the future for a goalie that would have put them over the top... |
There was still a 66% buyout on contracts(although just not re-signing him was an option at some point), and he had an ownership-imposed cap, if I recall correctly.
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razzmatazz
Go Habs Go! Vive le CH!
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 1632
Location: Burnaby, B.C.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Fair enough... although I"m betting Burke could have convinced McCaw to allow him to outbid Detroit for Hasek had they really thought that was the missing link... Or traded for Cujo... |
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Bosc Ulrich II
OTP Resident Historian
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 3204
Location: Sweetest lid in the league
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| razzmatazz wrote: |
| Fair enough... although I"m betting Burke could have convinced McCaw to allow him to outbid Detroit for Hasek had they really thought that was the missing link... Or traded for Cujo... |
I think Detroit had already traded for Hasek when Burke got the job in Van, and when he came out of retirement his rights were exclusive to Detroit, so Burke never had the chance to outbid Detroit for his services. Cujo was a different story...
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razzmatazz
Go Habs Go! Vive le CH!
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 1632
Location: Burnaby, B.C.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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Fair enough. I wouldn't presume to challenge the form historian on a matter that involves his beloved Wings  |
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monsieur parafect
OTPoliceman
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 113
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Burke does have to bear responsibility in not overrulling Crawford and getting a better goaltender. Burke was loyal to his coach, first getting Felix Potvin because Crow wanted him, having coached in the minors. When it became obvious to even Crawford and blind men that Potvin wasn't working out, the trade for Cloutier was made. Of course by overruling your coach you create tension and a possible disfunctional working environment which ends up with you replacing your coach. No, the Canucks wouldn't have won the Stanley Cup with the other goalies they had but in the Detroit series Cloutier allowed 10 goals on 30 shot after the Lidstrom goal. Had Crawford used Skudra after the faux pas, the Canucks would have stood a better chance in upsetting the Wings at that point. As far as Hedberg goes, he had more post season experience and success than any of the Canucks goalies but by that time Crawford had developed the ingenious idea that in order to boost Cloutier's confidence he had to berate the backup. Bosc is correct, the Canucks did have a self imposed cap administered by none other than Stan the Toady, McCaw's flunky. This became apparent during the Bertuzzi negotiations when Burke went public and showed the animosity between him and the Toady, a man who was universally reviled in the Canucks organization and told prospective Canucks buyers that he was responsible for the turnaround in the Canucks organization. The only thing the Toady was responsible for was in being behind the firing of the two most successful GMs in Canucks history. |
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Cannots Luvah
Mike Weaver jersey on order
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 939
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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I've said it before and Ill post it again... I wish we had this forum group during that time period of Quinn/Keenan/Burke. Quinn/Keenan/Burke and the crappy Canucks , Stupid Jackson/Versace and the Grizzlies , Greg Mohns and the BC Lions , ... the ranting we could've done in that day.
I wonder what all of our initial reactions and feeling were when the Bure deal went down. I still remember where I was when I heard the deal, I was at the Rupert Park Pitch and Put golf course and one of my buddies got a call on his then fancy cell phone. We finished our game ASAP while discussing it and rushed home to actually see the TSN report. I was in shock mostly... I think I liked it and I liked Gagner!
Seriously , these days including the later Brian Burke is like a weekend in Monaco in comparison to that time period. Good times. |
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Jyrki21
Rebel Sell + Moneyball = Life
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 1819
Location: Ottawa, ON
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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I've split this topic off from Mr. P's original post, as we're now into full-on Crawford/Cloutier talk and such. Actually, I probably should have split a little lower down. Oh well, there's no 'merge' function in this incarnation of OTP.
| Cannots Luvah wrote: |
| I wonder what all of our initial reactions and feeling were when the Bure deal went down. I still remember where I was when I heard the deal, I was at the Rupert Park Pitch and Put golf course and one of my buddies got a call on his then fancy cell phone. We finished our game ASAP while discussing it and rushed home to actually see the TSN report. I was in shock mostly... I think I liked it and I liked Gagner! |
I was living in Jerusalem, had no reliable web access (I used Lynx, that text-only browser which would be utterly useless with today's web page complexity), and particularly not on the weekend (no access at all), which is when the trade went down.
So I was probably the last Canuck fan on earth to actually find out, and I remember being in disbelief when I finally saw the e-mail updates (I was on a Canucks' mailing list). I thought Jovanovski was way overrated (and entirely on the basis of his hit on Lindros in the 1996 playoffs), I was very iffy on Weekes, thought Brown would never play an NHL game and that Gagner was a throw-in.
In hindsight, I was right about everything but Jovo, who I really came to love as a Canuck.
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Cannots Luvah
Mike Weaver jersey on order
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 939
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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I remember they were televising a Blazers game on tv that day by coincidence and Mike Brown was obviously playing and Sportsnet had a hot fresh interview with the kid hours after the deal.
Burke in his prime , thats when he first used the "Goalie of the future" phrase ..a phrase he still hasnt lived down and often gets used by others. Then 5-7 days later Burke fired Keenan. Explosive week for blockbuster news.
Bret Hedican was a steal for FLA in that deal ( we'll call it even with Krajicek). He's still a solid D man today. |
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Cannots Luvah
Mike Weaver jersey on order
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 939
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Jyrki21 wrote: |
I was living in Jerusalem, had no reliable web access |
oh yeah , I totally take modern day internet services for granted. I guess Canucks news was scarce even on the web, plus it was dial up and such. Was there a Canucks.com back then? |
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Jyrki21
Rebel Sell + Moneyball = Life
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 1819
Location: Ottawa, ON
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Cannots Luvah wrote: |
| oh yeah , I totally take modern day internet services for granted. I guess Canucks news was scarce even on the web, plus it was dial up and such. Was there a Canucks.com back then? |
I don't think so, or maybe a bare-bones one. Our on-campus web connections were backbone, but excruciatingly slow (and the Internet wasn't yet a very common medium in the Middle East), which is why I stuck to an e-mail list and "Lynx."
| Cannots Luvah wrote: |
| Bret Hedican was a steal for FLA in that deal ( we'll call it even with Krajicek). He's still a solid D man today. |
I was utterly incredulous that Vancouver had to give him up! They always say that the team who gets the best player wins the deal -- that was hands-down Bure, so all the other fodder should have been going the other way in my mind. I had no idea what Florida had done to deserve a side dish when they were already the ones getting the main course.
Ironically, Vancouver didn't really lose this deal -- Jovo stuck around long enough and was a solid contributor well after Bure was a Ranger on crutches. But I was so furious that Vancouver was forced into making an unwinnable trade -- only Ottawa has ever pulled off a rousing success when a gun was pointed to their head, that being the Yashin trade.
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the New Cunning Linguist
Like a good neighbor, but not
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 1628
Location: I'm here, aren't I?
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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I remember feeling okay when Bure got traded; he'd already made it abundantly clear he wanted out, and the media made him appear greedy, so I was only a little disappointed at seeing him traded. Didn't we already have Almo at that time, and didn't he pot like 52 goals for Vancouver one season? Initially, I wasn't crazy about what we got back in return, but over time, seeing Jovo play made it a lot easier to accept losing the most exciting player Vancouver had ever seen.
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... Because the old one, is well, old.
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Av-merican
Un-Tenured Professor of Hockey
Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 1943
Location: Denver
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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| In any event, Florida screwed the deal up like they did so many others (Luongo, Spacek) by dealing Hedican to Carolina for a fading Sandis Ozolinsh. So yes, Vancouver won the deal in hindsight by a country mile. |
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