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Hounsy
Reigning King of One-Liners
Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 1488
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 Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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Oh I agree Sask, goal should of been called off based on the letter of the law.
2007-8 NHL Rulebook
69.3 Contact Inside the Goal Crease - If an attacking player initiates
contact with a goalkeeper, incidental or otherwise, while the
goalkeeper is in his goal crease, and a goal is scored, the goal will be
disallowed.
If a goalkeeper, in the act of establishing his position within his
goal crease, initiates contact with an attacking player who is in the
goal crease, and this results in an impairment of the goalkeeper’s
ability to defend his goal, and a goal is scored, the goal will be
disallowed.
If, after any contact by a goalkeeper who is attempting to establish
position in his goal crease, the attacking player does not immediately
vacate his current position in the goal crease (i.e. give ground to the
goalkeeper), and a goal is scored, the goal will be disallowed. In all
such cases, whether or not a goal is scored, the attacking player will
receive a minor penalty for goalkeeper interference.
If an attacking player establishes a significant position within the
goal crease, so as to obstruct the goalkeeper’s vision and impair his
ability to defend his goal, and a goal is scored, the goal will be
disallowed.
For this purpose, a player “establishes a significant position within
the crease” when, in the Referee’s judgment, his body, or a
substantial portion thereof, is within the goal crease for more than an
instantaneous period of time.
_________________
It's not you Sundin, it's me...please just leave...and don't look back....please please do not look back. |
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Captain Chaos
(Formerly Lieutenant Chaos)
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 450
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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In reality the only way to settle it is to see what Don Cherry says about it on Sat.  |
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the New Cunning Linguist
Like a good neighbor, only better
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 1962
Location: I'm here, aren't I?
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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Why do you guys insist on arguing this point?
The rules that hounsy posted define goalie interference during the play of the game. Actually, goalie interference isn't even mentioned in the SO/PS rules:
Under Rule 89, Tied Game:
| NHL.com wrote: |
(NEW for 2005-06) During regular season games, if the game remains tied at the end of the five (5) minute overtime period, the teams will proceed to a shootout. The rules governing the shootout shall be the same as those listed under Rule 30 - Penalty Shot.
(NOTE1) The Teams will not change ends for the shootout. The visiting Team will shoot first. The teams shall alternate shots.
(NOTE 2) Three (3) players from each team shall participate in the shootout and they shall proceed in such order as the Coach selects. All players are eligible to participate in the shootout unless they are serving a ten minute misconduct or have been assessed a game misconduct, gross misconduct or match penalty.
(NOTE 3) Once the shootout begins, the goalkeeper cannot be replaced unless he is injured. No warm up shall be permitted for a substitute goalkeeper.
(NOTE 4) Each team will be given three shots, unless the outcome is determined earlier in the shootout. After each team has taken three shots, if the score remains tied, the shootout will proceed to a "sudden death" format. No player may shoot twice until everyone who is eligible has shot.
(NOTE 5) Regardless of the number of goals scored during the shootout portion of overtime, the final score recorded for the game will give the winning team one more goal than its opponent, based on the score at the end of overtime.
(NOTE 6) The losing goalkeeper will not be charged with the extra goal against. The player scoring the game winning goal in the shootout will not be credited with a goal scored in his personal statistics.
(NOTE 7) If a team declines to participate in the shootout procedure the game will be declared as a shootout loss for that team. If a team declines to take a shot it will be declared as "no goal".
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Rule 30
| NHL.coom wrote: |
Rule 30 Penalty Shot
Any infraction of the rules which calls for a "PENALTY SHOT" shall be taken as follows:
The Referee shall ask to have announced over the public address system the name of the player designated by him or selected by the Team entitled to take the shot (as appropriate). He shall then place the puck on the center face-off spot and the player taking the shot will, on the instruction of the Referee, play the puck from there and shall attempt to score on the goalkeeper. The puck must be kept in motion towards the opponent's goal line and once it is shot, the play shall be considered complete. No goal can be scored on a rebound of any kind (an exception being the puck off the goal post, then the goalkeeper and then directly into the goal), and any time the puck crosses the goal line, the shot shall be considered complete.
Only a player designated as a goalkeeper or alternate goalkeeper may defend against the penalty shot.
The goalkeeper must remain in his crease until the player taking the penalty shot has touched the puck and in the event of violation of this Rule or any foul committed by a goalkeeper, the Referee shall allow the shot to be taken and if the shot fails, he shall permit the penalty shot to be taken over again.
The goalkeeper may attempt to stop the shot in any manner except by throwing his stick or any object, in which case a goal shall be awarded.
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Nothing in there about a shooter causing interference on the goalie...
So yes, in theory, a 6'9" 255 lb Chara could conceivably launch himself into the goal with the puck underneath him and if the goalie doesn't stop him and the puck under him, it's a goal...
And for those who didn't see it, here's the goal: http://youtube.com/watch?v=evl59relDZs
C'mon, you gotta like that goal... Very creative... Khabibulin overcommitted on the poke-check and looked pretty foolish...
_________________
... Because the old one, is well, old.
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MrBumpnGrind
Illegitimate Luongo Child
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 352
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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optimism > pessemism
no i can't spell! |
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Tuzer
No longer Croozing
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 973
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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| MrBumpnGrind wrote: |
optimism > pessemism
no i can't spell! |
Now there's a snappy comeback |
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saskhab
'03-'04 Goalie Profiles Coming Soon!
Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 3841
Location: Saskatoon!
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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| the New Cunning Linguist wrote: |
Why do you guys insist on arguing this point?
The rules that hounsy posted define goalie interference during the play of the game. Actually, goalie interference isn't even mentioned in the SO/PS rules:
Under Rule 89, Tied Game:
| NHL.com wrote: |
(NEW for 2005-06) During regular season games, if the game remains tied at the end of the five (5) minute overtime period, the teams will proceed to a shootout. The rules governing the shootout shall be the same as those listed under Rule 30 - Penalty Shot.
(NOTE1) The Teams will not change ends for the shootout. The visiting Team will shoot first. The teams shall alternate shots.
(NOTE 2) Three (3) players from each team shall participate in the shootout and they shall proceed in such order as the Coach selects. All players are eligible to participate in the shootout unless they are serving a ten minute misconduct or have been assessed a game misconduct, gross misconduct or match penalty.
(NOTE 3) Once the shootout begins, the goalkeeper cannot be replaced unless he is injured. No warm up shall be permitted for a substitute goalkeeper.
(NOTE 4) Each team will be given three shots, unless the outcome is determined earlier in the shootout. After each team has taken three shots, if the score remains tied, the shootout will proceed to a "sudden death" format. No player may shoot twice until everyone who is eligible has shot.
(NOTE 5) Regardless of the number of goals scored during the shootout portion of overtime, the final score recorded for the game will give the winning team one more goal than its opponent, based on the score at the end of overtime.
(NOTE 6) The losing goalkeeper will not be charged with the extra goal against. The player scoring the game winning goal in the shootout will not be credited with a goal scored in his personal statistics.
(NOTE 7) If a team declines to participate in the shootout procedure the game will be declared as a shootout loss for that team. If a team declines to take a shot it will be declared as "no goal".
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Rule 30
| NHL.coom wrote: |
Rule 30 Penalty Shot
Any infraction of the rules which calls for a "PENALTY SHOT" shall be taken as follows:
The Referee shall ask to have announced over the public address system the name of the player designated by him or selected by the Team entitled to take the shot (as appropriate). He shall then place the puck on the center face-off spot and the player taking the shot will, on the instruction of the Referee, play the puck from there and shall attempt to score on the goalkeeper. The puck must be kept in motion towards the opponent's goal line and once it is shot, the play shall be considered complete. No goal can be scored on a rebound of any kind (an exception being the puck off the goal post, then the goalkeeper and then directly into the goal), and any time the puck crosses the goal line, the shot shall be considered complete.
Only a player designated as a goalkeeper or alternate goalkeeper may defend against the penalty shot.
The goalkeeper must remain in his crease until the player taking the penalty shot has touched the puck and in the event of violation of this Rule or any foul committed by a goalkeeper, the Referee shall allow the shot to be taken and if the shot fails, he shall permit the penalty shot to be taken over again.
The goalkeeper may attempt to stop the shot in any manner except by throwing his stick or any object, in which case a goal shall be awarded.
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Nothing in there about a shooter causing interference on the goalie...
So yes, in theory, a 6'9" 255 lb Chara could conceivably launch himself into the goal with the puck underneath him and if the goalie doesn't stop him and the puck under him, it's a goal...
And for those who didn't see it, here's the goal: http://youtube.com/watch?v=evl59relDZs
C'mon, you gotta like that goal... Very creative... Khabibulin overcommitted on the poke-check and looked pretty foolish... |
Well, if you honestly believe that Rule 30 is the only rule applicable in the situation, the goalie should take off his skate and try and slice the shooter before he gets a shot off. Hey, it doesn't say he can't do it.
_________________
"Oh my God. There she is. Lovely Sally Slater. I should speak to her. But what the hell can I say? Anything that doesn't mention that I masturbate over her memory is probably a good idea."
- Mark Corrigan, Peep Show |
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Captain Chaos
(Formerly Lieutenant Chaos)
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 450
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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John Garrett said it best: "don't give me that one. He wasn't going to get that one anyway."
Good controversy livens the boards.
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Captain Chaos
(Formerly Lieutenant Chaos)
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 450
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:01 am Post subject: |
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In the shootout: Pitting the morbidly obese goalie against the giant shooter would present an interesting test case for rule 30. I feel that the forward movement of the puck would stop before the shooter could possibly stuff the goalie into the net regardless of the call or non-call of interference.  |
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the New Cunning Linguist
Like a good neighbor, only better
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 1962
Location: I'm here, aren't I?
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:08 am Post subject: |
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| saskhab wrote: |
Well, if you honestly believe that Rule 30 is the only rule applicable in the situation, the goalie should take off his skate and try and slice the shooter before he gets a shot off. Hey, it doesn't say he can't do it. |
To be perfectly up-to-date, actually, it's Rule 25 in the 2008 Rulebook:
| 2008 NHL Rulebook wrote: |
Rule 25 – Penalty Shot
25.1 Penalty Shot – A penalty shot is designed to restore a scoring
opportunity which was lost as a result of a foul being committed by the
offending team, based on the parameters set out in these rules.
25.2 Procedure - The Referee shall ask to have announced over
the public address system the name of the player designated by him or selected
by the team entitled to take the shot (as appropriate). He shall then
place the puck on the center face-off spot and the player taking the
shot will, on the instruction of the Referee (by blowing his whistle),
play the puck from there and shall attempt to score on the goalkeeper.
The puck must be kept in motion towards the opponent’s goal line and
once it is shot, the play shall be considered complete. No goal can be
scored on a rebound of any kind (an exception being the puck off the
goal post or crossbar, then the goalkeeper and then directly into the
goal), and any time the puck crosses the goal line or comes to a
complete stop, the shot shall be considered complete.
The lacrosse-like move whereby the puck is picked up on the blade
of the stick and “whipped” into the net shall be permitted provided the
puck is not raised above the height of the shoulders at any time and
when released, is not carried higher than the crossbar. See also 80.1.
The spin-o-rama type move where the player completes a 360°
turn as he approaches the goal, shall be permitted as this involves
continuous motion.
Only a player designated as a goalkeeper or alternate goalkeeper
may defend against the penalty shot.
The goalkeeper must remain in his crease until the player taking
the penalty shot has touched the puck.
If at the time a penalty shot is awarded, the goalkeeper of the
penalized team has been removed from the ice to substitute another
player, the goalkeeper shall be permitted to return to the ice before
the penalty shot is taken.
The team against whom the penalty shot has been assessed may
replace their goalkeeper to defend against the penalty shot, however,
the substitute goalkeeper is required to remain in the game until the
next stoppage of play.
While the penalty shot is being taken, players of both sides shall
withdraw to the sides of the rink and in front of their own player’s
bench.
25.3 Designated Player – In cases where a penalty shot has been
awarded to a player specifically fouled, that player shall be designated
by the Referee to take the penalty shot.
In all other cases where a penalty shot has been awarded, the
penalty shot shall be taken by a player selected by the Captain of the
non-offending team from the players on the ice at the time when the
foul was committed. Such selection shall be reported to the Referee and cannot be changed.
If by reason of injury, the player designated by the Referee to take
the penalty shot is unable to do so within a reasonable time, the shot
may be taken by a player selected by the Captain of the non-offending
team from the players on the ice when the foul was committed. Such
selection shall be reported to the Referee and cannot be changed.
Should the player in respect to whom a penalty shot has been
awarded himself commit a foul in connection with the same play or
circumstances, either before or after the penalty shot has been
awarded, be designated to take the shot, he shall first be permitted to
do so before being sent to the penalty bench to serve the penalty
except when such penalty is for a game misconduct or match penalty
in which case the penalty shot shall be taken by a player selected by
the Captain of the non-offending team from the players on the ice at
the time when the foul was committed.
From Rule 80.1:
...Cradling the puck on the blade of the stick (like lacrosse) above
the normal height of the shoulders shall be prohibited and a stoppage
of play shall result. If this is done by a player on a penalty shot or
shootout attempt, the shot shall be stopped immediately and
considered complete. |
So the spin-a-rama and the lacrosse moves were specifically included / added since the 2005 season, but still nothing there about the shooter possibly interfering with the goalie. So I can see that it would trump anything that is excluded by omission. So nyeah! Blame Bettman and the GMs (possibly also the PA) for never considering that the rules don't actually prevent any team from using deadly force (whether from shooting the puck really hard, or by crashing the net, skate blades first and crotch-high) to score a goal.
I can also imagine that the powers-that-be never once considered the possibility that in attempting these moves, a shooter may collide with the goalie; hence I imagine that after this season, they'll consider tweaking the rules again to prevent guys the size of refrigerators from intentionally plowing into goalies during the SO.
_________________
... Because the old one, is well, old.
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the New Cunning Linguist
Like a good neighbor, only better
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 1962
Location: I'm here, aren't I?
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:14 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Chaos wrote: |
| In the shootout: Pitting the morbidly obese goalie against the giant shooter would present an interesting test case for rule 30. I feel that the forward movement of the puck would stop before the shooter could possibly stuff the goalie into the net regardless of the call or non-call of interference. |
And interestingly, the SO rules don't prevent a team from changing their goalies for the SO; you could conceivably have your morbidly obese goalie sitting on the bench, hoovering down ho-hos and Jolt cola, while on the other end of the bench, you could have an almost-equally obese (doesn't have to be a giant) SO Specialist/human wrecking ball to take that all important second SO shot for you if the game makes it that far...  Then just let the physics of large bodies dictate the result...
_________________
... Because the old one, is well, old.
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Jyrki21
Rebel Sell + Moneyball = Life
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 2018
Location: Ottawa, ON
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:19 am Post subject: |
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I just can't get over the fact that the word "spin-o-rama" appears in the official NHL rulebook.
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Captain Chaos
(Formerly Lieutenant Chaos)
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 450
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:23 am Post subject: |
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| Jyrki21 wrote: |
| I just can't get over the fact that the word "spin-o-rama" appears in the official NHL rulebook. |
It's all about the bling in the GBHL. |
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Bosc Ulrich II
OTP Resident Historian
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 3477
Location: Sweetest lid in the league
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:15 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Only a player designated as a goalkeeper or alternate goalkeeper
may defend against the penalty shot. |
Ahh, rest in piece Roger Nielson
_________________
Bring back the old OTP!
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HOLLYWOOD35
Joined: 24 Oct 2007
Posts: 103
Location: Langley, BC
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:08 am Post subject: |
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| In a post game chat with Habby he didn't even mention being bumped. He said he was pissed because he didn't think he should have been allowed to pull that move. He was pissed because he got showed up in his mind. Goalies are always getting bumped a little bit and the goal counts. Why should it change now? it was a tiny little bump. The little tiny bump didnt cause the goal anyways. |
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freakydave
Less freaky once you get to know him
Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 186
Location: JESUS JUST LEFT CHICAGO
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Hounsy wrote: |
Oh I agree Sask, goal should of been called off based on the letter of the law.
2007-8 NHL Rulebook
69.3 Contact Inside the Goal Crease - If an attacking player initiates
contact with a goalkeeper, incidental or otherwise, while the
goalkeeper is in his goal crease, and a goal is scored, the goal will be
disallowed.
If a goalkeeper, in the act of establishing his position within his
goal crease, initiates contact with an attacking player who is in the
goal crease, and this results in an impairment of the goalkeeper’s
ability to defend his goal, and a goal is scored, the goal will be
disallowed.
If, after any contact by a goalkeeper who is attempting to establish
position in his goal crease, the attacking player does not immediately
vacate his current position in the goal crease (i.e. give ground to the
goalkeeper), and a goal is scored, the goal will be disallowed. In all
such cases, whether or not a goal is scored, the attacking player will
receive a minor penalty for goalkeeper interference.
If an attacking player establishes a significant position within the
goal crease, so as to obstruct the goalkeeper’s vision and impair his
ability to defend his goal, and a goal is scored, the goal will be
disallowed.
For this purpose, a player “establishes a significant position within
the crease” when, in the Referee’s judgment, his body, or a
substantial portion thereof, is within the goal crease for more than an
instantaneous period of time. |
Okay I've read the rules-
IMO the rule usually applies when the person making contact isn't the goal scorer--2nd the refs by allowing goal & then Toronto agreeing(it was reviewed)says Khabby intiated contact on the pokecheck & he was out of position to make the save without the contact.It's the refs' call.
You can follow the puck into the crease.Also it's not the first time Khabby has been beaten in the SO with this move it counted then why not now.
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=hpggqoX7MYU
commentary is in french |
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freakydave
Less freaky once you get to know him
Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 186
Location: JESUS JUST LEFT CHICAGO
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
I can also imagine that the powers-that-be never once considered the possibility that in attempting these moves, a shooter may collide with the goalie; hence I imagine that after this season, they'll consider tweaking the rules again to prevent guys the size of refrigerators from intentionally plowing into goalies during the SO. |
I doubt it you can carry the puck into the crease.If you can't do that- offence is going to decrease in the league & for SO do we really want them to go on longer it's bad enough as it is. |
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freakydave
Less freaky once you get to know him
Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 186
Location: JESUS JUST LEFT CHICAGO
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:34 pm Post subject: This game |
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| Chicago should feel fortunate to get a point Vancouver outplayed them & deserved the two points. |
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