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Bergeron taken off on a stretcher
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hipcheck
Wears red stockings

Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 539
Location: The Box

Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:25 pm Post subject:

harmfuljays wrote:

Hey I know its what you all want. A league of f'n daisies out there.

Jones lined him up and finished his check. Jones is coming up beside him and has him lined up. Bergeron does actually turn into the oncoming check of Jones. Jones follows through with the check.

Watch it at full speed....not the made for ESPN Drama in slow speed.

I'd rather see a team out there finishing checks then wondering about a suspension every time they go to hit. I don't like the direction that this is heading. Its hockey and sometimes people get hurt when they get hit. Split second decisions on skates on a sheet of ice are a lot harder to make.

I don't agree with the suspension. He served his time in the box.

If a player is facing the boards, you cant' hit him in the back. Period.
Nothing borderline about it.
That's the way it's been for years.
Bergeron didn't turn, he was skating to collect the puck, & his back was to Jones the entire time.
Had Jones tried to pull up and simply pin Bergeron there, I'd still give him a penalty, but perhaps not the suspension.
However, the fact that he extended his arms through the hit speaks volumes about his intent to me.
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razzmatazz
Go Habs Go! Vive le CH!

Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 1649
Location: Burnaby, B.C.

Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:38 pm Post subject:

Legal hit? Bergeron turned into Jones? As long as we're putting in our two cents worth, I'll call a spade a spade - that is absolute, unadulterated horseshit. Didn't realize we had so many Homeland Security employees frequenting these forums... Bosc is 100% correct, and Bob McKenzie is 100% INCORRECT. This was a vicious, vicious hit, and 2 games is a mockery. Tell Travis Roy that face first into the boards is no big deal. The first guy to be paralyzed in an NHL game is gonna get hella rich off the league because they are so fucking liable for negligence, this has been staring them in the face for years and we get two games. Brutal. I don't know why it's so hard to get through everyone's head that stick or no stick is not the issue. Neither, to be fair, is the injury. The point is the intent and the recklessness. Jones' hit was extremely reckless. Watch the tape - he had a chance to assess the situation, and THEN push off his skates and level Bergeron. The fact that he used his arm to push Bergy's head into the glass exacerbates the situation. I understand that hockey is played at a fast pace and Jones didn't have time to ponder what we are. That doesn't allow him to do what he did. Fortunately swflyers, you're also wrong about nothing else happening. Do you really think the Bruins will be content with that suspension? Vigilante justice time, my boy. Jones will be on the ice the next time we play you guys. Until he too leaves on a stretcher. Oh, and lest you think we'll stop there, get ready for Daniel Briere, whom most of the team already hates, to take a late, dirty hit as well. If your guy gets 2 games for putting out our guy, the bar has been set, hasn't it? I'm sure Thornton will gladly sit out two games for putting one of your guys in the intensive care unit... Don't look for any sympathy from Bruin nation. Flyer nation has it coming, and it's gonna be sweet...

harmfuljays
King of Men

Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 1259
Location: Djibouti

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:04 am Post subject:

I am curious as to how many people here have actually laid a body check (or been hit for that matter)? Hopefully most of you. So then you all know how much timing goes in to the hit. You've pretty much got to be comitted to finishing the hit before you begin. Putting all my predisposed Bostoness aside, I am very surprised at this. Watching this video over and over.........faults I find are positioning became screwey and Jones took nothing off of the hit.....MAYBE he could have. Let's all get this right. Hitting causes injuries regardless of if its into the boards or smack dab on open ice. When you hit someone the intent isn't to hold his nutsack. Its to hurt him. People get run over in football all the time......and you don't have maniacal fans screaming....he hit him too hard! Why? Because they are supposed to hurt each other and everyone understands this. Its always easy to sit at home and say there is a cap limit for violence. When you are trained to do something that comes second nature it doesn't require thought. So while we are all sitting at home saying what was he thinking......well you know what......he probably wasn't! If we don't like the violence then Ice Capades is over on ESPN. Allowing the Front office dabbling into What is........or What isn't a "proper" hit is bad for the game. Its a place the front office doesn't belong. IMO the Bruins should have come off the bench and kicked ass....but they didn't because they aren't allowed to....(more front office interference). The Flyers happen to have a lot of young kids who seem to lack discipline and respect for the other players in the league. Why do you all think that is? Honestly, if you want to solve this issue you have to ban hits along the boards period. Which means it will be time for me to turn the channel to ESPN. _________________ -UP THE IRONS!

Bosc Ulrich II
OTP Resident Historian

Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 3215
Location: Sweetest lid in the league

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:20 am Post subject:

The front office needs to suspend hits that go over the line and overstep safety boundaries. Hits that are dangerous to the ability to work and the livelyhood of a player. Hitting is one thing, hitting from behind is quite another. This isn't simply a guy finishing his check. Let's make this clear. The Randy Jones hit isn't a frigging body check. It's a hit from behind. Harmy, there is huge attention paid to hitting from behind starting when kids first start to hit in minor hockey. Why? Because they've proven time and time again to be the most dangerous kind of hit. Av got smoked from behind once, broken collar bone. I've seen tons of kids get hit from behind and get carried off, end up in the hospital with broken bones. And that's kids in their low teens! Now magnify that with the full force of a full grown man impacting someone's head, spine or back into the boards. I played contact hockey for a long time. Most of that was in net. My first year of contact hockey playing out was when I was 21. There was a couple of times where I had someone lined up and they turned their back, and I managed not to smoke them. I was hit from behind once. I made a play on the puck along the boards right at a bench, my back was to the player, and I got drilled late from behind with a cross-check. Luckily my cage took the brunt of the impact, I got up, put my jaw back in place and then lined up for the faceoff with the guy in the box. Too many other people aren't so lucky. You're right, hitting is all about timing. You have to have the timing not to drill a guy if he's turned before you start your hit. Committing is one thing, execution is quite another. You can't use the excuse that you had committed to the hit and he turned before you started it. That's simply control, and not drilling that guy from behind is something taught by pretty much any coach and league from the time that hitting starts at 10 years old or whatever. Hitting from behind is simply the most dangerous hit when a guy is most vulnerable to injury. Control to not do that is taught from the very start, and while you want to be committed to finishing your check before you start it, you certainly have to be able to lay off if it's a hit from behind. _________________ Bring back the old OTP!

swflyers8

Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 117
Location: Norristown, PA

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:08 pm Post subject:

Quote:

I'd rather see a team out there finishing checks then wondering about a suspension every time they go to hit. I don't like the direction that this is heading. Its hockey and sometimes people get hurt when they get hit. Split second decisions on skates on a sheet of ice are a lot harder to make.

I don't agree with the suspension. He served his time in the box.

Totally agree.

Quote:

However, Jones had a complete view of Bergeron's back before he hit him. That's when you don't hit someone. That's hitting from behind, not finishing a check. When a guy turns into it, then it can be a tough call. This one wasn't. Bergeron turned way before Jones had to make a decision. He still made the decision to drill him from behind. You can't make a decision to hit someone on the expectation that they'll turn so that you won't hit
them from behind.

This happens all the time, I'm sorry. A forward goes in to get the puck and the defenseman follows or it's reversed. A defenseman goes in to retrieve the puck with the forward on his tale. They know that someone is on them. They also know it's not a good idea to put on the breaks at the last second because it puts you in a dangerous position. Same thing happened earlier in the game with Timonen going in to get the puck in his own zone and Schaefer hit him from behind. Timonen stayed up right and took the hit. That's how it usually happens during the game.

Quote:

Fortunately swflyers, you're also wrong about nothing else happening. Do you really think the Bruins will be content with that suspension? Vigilante justice time, my boy. Jones will be on the ice the next time we play you guys. Until he too leaves on a stretcher. Oh, and lest you think we'll stop there, get ready for Daniel Briere, whom most of the team already hates, to take a late, dirty hit as well. If your guy gets 2 games for putting out our guy, the bar has been set, hasn't it? I'm sure Thornton will gladly sit out two games for putting one of your guys in the intensive care unit...

Don't look for any sympathy from Bruin nation. Flyer nation has it coming, and it's gonna be sweet..

We're shaking in our boots over here in Flyerdom Razz. Laughing

Danny has taken some big hits already this year and he doesn't act like a nancy boy and cry about it. He gets hit and gets right back up. Or he punishes them by scoring the game winning goal. It doesn't matter. So now I can add the nasty Bruins to the list of teams wanting to come after the Flyers. It's you, the Sens and Canucks. Big deal. The B's can bring it, the Flyers will be waiting. And I can tell you that the Flyers have a tougher roster than the Bruins do. Looking forward to our next matchup on November 26th in OUR building. Laughing

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Bosc Ulrich II
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Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:20 pm Post subject:

swflyers8 wrote:

Plays happen when a guy pulls up and takes the hit against the boards. If Bergeron pulls up and then Jones puts him against the boards, then fine, that happens. But that's not how it happened. How often do you see where a guy puts on the brakes, and the guy chasing him plows into him despite being able to avoid hitting him, and then completely follows through on the hit and plants the guy's face against the glass with his arm between the guy's shoulder blades? Not often. And that's what happened here. Bergeron didn't pull up, and Jones had the opportunity not to hit him. He still started the hit, then followed through with the hit from behind. Simple call.

This isn't about "what if Bergeron didn't stop and pulled up instead?". This is about Jones being able to read Bergeron's name and number on the back of his jersey, and following through on an avoidable and reckless hit from behind.
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harmfuljays
King of Men

Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 1259
Location: Djibouti

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:49 pm Post subject:

That's not how it happened PER YOUR PERSPECTIVE Bosc. Everybody here is entitled to their own opinions. _________________ -UP THE IRONS!

Bosc Ulrich II
OTP Resident Historian

Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 3215
Location: Sweetest lid in the league

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:58 pm Post subject:

harmfuljays wrote:

That's not how it happened PER YOUR PERSPECTIVE Bosc. Everybody here is entitled to their own opinions.

Yup, I'm just calling it as I see it. Like Sask said, guys have been suspended for blatant hits from behind before, and that's what he was suspended for.
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Caniac Chuck
Curator of the Dog Park

Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 268
Location: Greensboro, NC

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:21 pm Post subject:

Watch the full speed clip. Bergeron comes from behind and left of Jones, and cuts in front of him almost at the last second. People are acting like Jones lined him up from 20ft away. _________________

Bosc Ulrich II
OTP Resident Historian

Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 3215
Location: Sweetest lid in the league

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:28 pm Post subject:

Caniac Chuck wrote:

Watch the full speed clip. Bergeron comes from behind and left of Jones, and cuts in front of him almost at the last second.

People are acting like Jones lined him up from 20ft away.

I've seen the full speed and slow mo enough times to say that I still think this hit was both avoidable and reckless, especially compared to other hits where the guy turns at the last second. Hell, even Harmy, who disagrees with me about the hit, agrees that Jones took nothing off of the hit when he followed through.
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PattyLa16
Queen of the Random Thought

Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 634
Location: Buffalo, NY

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:19 pm Post subject:

Bosc Ulrich II wrote:

I agree. Avoidable and reckless is a good description.

Stinky
Woman of Color of the Post

Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 866

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:05 pm Post subject:

I love that he's 'Dany' now that he's a flier, not that flopping little twirp from the hated team that humilated the fliers in the playoffs a couple of years ago... _________________ The crowd once again showed its IQ level when it shouted ``U-S-A, U-S-A,'' during the fight. Their hero, Downie, is from Newmarket, Ont.

hipcheck
Wears red stockings

Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 539
Location: The Box

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:50 pm Post subject:

harmfuljays wrote:

I am curious as to how many people here have actually laid a body check (or been hit for that matter)? Hopefully most of you. So then you all know how much timing goes in to the hit. You've pretty much got to be comitted to finishing the hit before you begin.

Oooh, I have - hundreds, and taken my fair share as well Very Happy

I've done illegal hits as well, and I've pinned people face first to the boards
But not with a check ...I've never strode into a check into someone's back when they were facing the boards. Never. (Although I did check someone in the back in open ice, but that was a referee so it doesn't count Razz

)

I've had it done to me at least 10 times. Never once was it called a penalty. Evil or Very Mad

Once, I was actually immobile for several minutes and the game was halted...although that wasn't a check, it was an accidental trip.
That's why I don't do it ... it's so dangerous to even trip someone when they are moving towards the boards.

As for committing to finishing you're check, if you can read their name, you shouldn't be starting a body check (if they're facing the boards)
There are other ways to go about it.

That's why, as Bosc would probably agree, you have to pay attention when you get on the ice even in pickup, because those clowns with no clue are the worst. I've seen so many who go full bore like they have no head, not slowing down when near the boards (usually these are the guys who use the boards to stop), swinging their sticks like Zena Princess Warrior

So to say Jones was already committed to the hit doesn't wash, because Bergeron's back was to him the entire time. To make it worse, he drove Bergeron's head into the glass with the follow through of his arms, which is not part of a legal check anyways.
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razzmatazz
Go Habs Go! Vive le CH!

Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 1649
Location: Burnaby, B.C.

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:13 pm Post subject:

If by "tough" you mean acts in a way that leaves opponents vulnerable to concussions and paralysis, it's true, the Flyers have us, and the rest of the league, beaten hands down... I'll try to encapsulate my thoughts in a couple of succinct points. 1) Watch the clip. Jones had only a spilt second, but he stopped, saw Bergeron, and THEN pushed off on his skates to initiate the check. I don't expect him to ponder the point for 5 seconds. I don't say he intended anything more than to make a check. I simply agree with Bosc - that's a cardinal rule from day one of youth hockey - don't hit a guy in that situation... 2) Also agree with Hipcheck - in any event, the arm to the back of the head is illegal period, and contributed to the force of the hit and injury.

harmfuljays
King of Men

Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 1259
Location: Djibouti

Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:09 am Post subject:

hipcheck wrote:

That's why, as Bosc would probably agree, you have to pay attention when you get on the ice even in pickup, because those clowns with no clue are the worst. I've seen so many who go full bore like they have no head, not slowing down when near the boards (usually these are the guys who use the boards to stop), swinging their sticks like Zena Princess Warrior

That's me....... Razz

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