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Offthepost (Generation II)
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monsieur parafect
OTPoliceman
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 123
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 Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:44 am Post subject: |
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| razzmatazz wrote: |
That Bieksa's having a career year...
Alberts was playing top 2 minutes at a similar age, and holding a positive plus minus. Your foursome sees more time on Westjet planes to Winnipeg than it does on the ice. Small difference.
I do prefer Phaneuf to Lidstrom. If both were 26 I'd take Lidstrom. Easily. Both are not 26. Lidstrom is old, Phaneuf is young. Give me Phaneuf.
I have never denied Crosby's talents. I merely suggest he is a crybaby, showoff, one dimensional, immature, pompous ass who will never lead his team to the promised land. That's a nice segway to Joe Thornton. Although Primeau showed more heart on his goal than Joe did his whole time in Boston, my love for that deal is the fact that we ended up with Sturm, Kobasew and Ference, and cap room, for a guy that disappears when it matters.
Tough for a hockey fan follow the Canucks when you live in Vancouver. It's following a superior team back east, one that gets no press coverage west of Toronto, that is a challenge.
Luvah's just choked that Krejci isn't a Canuck, he'd be out at 8 rink asking for a date every day... |
razz, that is the one of the most incoherent posts/rebuttals you've posted. Were you hitting the Jager hard?
Bieksa - He's injured and started the season with an abdominal injury before going down with a lacerated calf. Does that make him a failed Canucks draft pick? Do you deny he had a breakout season with the Canucks last year?
You acknowledge you're not a Canucks fan. So how close do you pay attention to the Canucks prospects? Probably not closely. Your opinion is that any Canucks prospect is no good, an opinion not based on facts but dislike, an emotion and not a fact. Jyrki brought up on otp.net that most prospects, whether they be Bruins or Canucks prospects most likely won't make the NHL. So while you can claim Canucks prospects are shit, anyone would be correct in saying that Bruins draft picks are shit as well. Two you claimed were shit were Bieksa and Edler. They are bonafide NHLers whether you like it or not. I brought up Alberts because you claimed Canucks prospect were not 18 and insinuated they were over the hill. Earlier on otp.net you referred to Alberts as a prospect in which Jyrki responded that he's too old to be a prospect. So where's your consistency? A 26 year old with the Bruins is a prospect while a 20, 21, 22 year old Canucks prospect is washed up? BTW, Alberts has 175 career games with a total of 19 pt and a +/- of -6. Bieksa has played 139 career games with 52 pt and a +/- of -5. Both are 26 years old. Better +/- for Alberts my ass.
Crosby or Thorton would look good in a Canucks or Bruins uniform. The only thing I will say about Thorton is that his playoff number were respectable in his career except in 1998 when he was an 18 year old rookie and in 2004 when he was so severely injured with a separated shoulder that he shouldn't have been in the Bruins lineup. The fact he was in their lineup that playoffs shows Bruins mangement were thoughtless and inept and that Sinden and Jacobs were setting him up for failure.
So you're switching allegiences to another Eastern team that's better than Canucks, are you? Who? Ottawa? Carolina? Rangers? razz is now a Flyers fan? |
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Cannots Luvah
Mike Weaver jersey on order
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 1148
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Boston also wanted to add even more depth to their treasure chest of goalies , they aquired former Canuck goalie , Alex Auld. Greedy bastards , stop hoggin all the great depth!!!! |
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razzmatazz
Go Habs Go! Vive le CH!
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 1826
Location: Burnaby, B.C.
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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I didn't actually say Alberts' plus minus was better than Bieksa's. I also didn't say the prospects were washed up, I said they were not of great quality. There's a difference.
I don't know how many times I have to say I was 100% wrong about Bieksa. I was 100% wrong about Bieksa. Bosc please file.
That said, he's not worth anything close to 3.5 million.
I'm not sure exactly how you reconcile my complimentary words about Schnieder and Bourdon with the statement that I deride every Canuck prospect on a principled basis. I will not apologize for the opinion that Jannik Hansen, Mason Raymond and Ryan Shannon amount to 5/8's of fuck all. Throw Jason Jaffray in there as well. What I don't get is why very few of you have tweaked to the idea that you have a prospect far better than any of that mess in Juraj Simek... |
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Jyrki21
Rebel Sell + Moneyball = Life
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 2018
Location: Ottawa, ON
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| razzmatazz wrote: |
| I don't know how many times I have to say I was 100% wrong about Bieksa. I was 100% wrong about Bieksa. Bosc please file. |
Um, right in this thread you retorted to Mr. P by suggesting that Bieksa is no good.
| monsieur parafect wrote: |
| Funny, you said the same thing about Bieksa and Edler being shit as well in the past. |
| razzmatazz wrote: |
| That Bieksa's having a career year... |
I wish you could understand this, Razz: you try to play the martyr and claim that the reason your posts are received as annoying is because they're not 100% praising the team (ignoring the fact that people in this forum are among the team's harshest critics, and criticism by other non-fans has never been an issue).
The reason is precisely the opposite: you are unable to do anything but deride, no matter what is actually going on, as your 'opinions' are formed based on what you wish were true. This is trolling. Occasionally you will of course be right, because the team is far from perfect -- but this is meaningless when your inelastic view is entirely predictable in advance, and is not rooted in anything but emotion. It is no more interesting to read than someone who thinks everything is 100% correct every time -- they will occasionally be right too, but not because of reason.
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razzmatazz
Go Habs Go! Vive le CH!
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 1826
Location: Burnaby, B.C.
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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Actually I was referring to the fact that he's hurt, and wasn't playing very well when he went down. That has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not my opinion of him before his breakout year was accurate or not. Completely different topics. Yet you paint them as if somehow, "logically", my offerings are contradictoy.
I could make a comparison to certain members of the Bush administration, but I have always, and will continue to, refrain from descending into petty name calling and other personal attacks.
That said, I find your ongoing approach to my posting to be inexplicably condescending. I would have thought it permissable to challenge the Canuck roster; apparently when it's Razz doing it it's off-base no matter what - an interesting an ironic twist to your similarly themed complaints.
At the end of the day, it is obvious that my criticisms are not welcome in Canuck land. I will from here on out endeavour to avoid commentary in the Canucks forum that is in any way derisive of the team. If the Canuck fans on this board are as self-depricating as you suggest, then I look forward to sitting back and merely watching the intelligent, balanced debate about the pros and cons of the hockey franchise in this fair city... |
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Bosc Ulrich II
OTP Resident Historian
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 3477
Location: Sweetest lid in the league
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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Razz, seeing as you seem completely mystified as to why people don't like your comments, I'll help you out:
| razzmatazz wrote: |
| That Bieksa's having a career year... |
Why is it that when someone mentions an injured Bruin in any capacity, you immediately jump on them like they've kicked a crippled friend, and yet it's perfectly fine for you to take shots at Canucks players or other players in a similar, if not worse situation? That's the kind of shit that annoys people. Or that you can trash a player on an opposing team after one game, or in some cases simply for missing one, but one good game by a Bruin justifies an entire contract, or that a +3 game by Hal Gill disproves all critics of his game?
That's the kind of hypocritical nonsense that people don't like.
As for this:
| Quote: |
Roll your eyes all you want, those are shit propects. Edler, Bourdon, Schnieder, sure, all look like they're gonna be solid, dependable NHLers, probably more in Bourdon and Schnieder' cases. |
The original statement that you criticized was depth on their farm team. What does this have to do with any long-term career potential? Could you kindly point me to where it said that in the article? It was simply a statement of the depth of their farm team, which is certainly improved over last year, and that was the point of the statement. Yet again you jump on the opportunity to trash their prospects. If you can't see how that and the first example are annoying, well, then I don't know what to tell you.
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Bring back the old OTP!
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monsieur parafect
OTPoliceman
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 123
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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Pardon me razz, but aren't you being a bit of a drama queen with your last post?
I have no problem with anyone criticizing the Canucks when it's justified. Earlier in the offseason you made comments about the Canucks forwards which I agreed with. You referred to Taylor Pyatt as inconsistent. I couldn't have agreed with you more, I've said he has the talent to be another John Leclair (in his prime) but never gets around to becoming that type of player. Matt Cooke infuriates me almost as much as he does you. Throw in my taking your side in the Jones on Bergeron hit and I almost had to see if the sun was rising in the west, we were agreeing on so many things NHL.
The "their prospects are shit" comment is where we part. I think Bosc explained it nicely in his last post, they are better prospects but they aren't neccessarily going to make the NHL. No, most won't, the same as the other 29 teams' prospects aren't going to make it either. I doubted a 22 year old prospect Pat Quinn acquired in the spring of 1996, I thought he would amount to nothing. Then in the fall of 1998, during some of the darkest Canuck days with Keenan and Messier in charge, Bure sitting in Russia demanding to be traded, this now 25 year old prospect named Markus Naslund broke out. I was never so wrong about any player. Sam Pollock and Bill Torrey used to say it took 3-5 years to evaluate prospects and that was when they were drafted at 20 years old. It's even longer now with the 18 year old draft. So until the Canucks prospects don't pan out, your current shit comment about them boils down to trash talking and trolling. Now if the Canucks are in a position to draft Jon Tavares and they choose the second coming of Alex Stoyanov, then feel free to heap on the criticism. Let 'er rip.
BTW Bosc and Jyrki, excellent posts. |
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razzmatazz
Go Habs Go! Vive le CH!
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 1826
Location: Burnaby, B.C.
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| I have all of your points. I stand by what I said, and will not comment further. |
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Jyrki21
Rebel Sell + Moneyball = Life
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 2018
Location: Ottawa, ON
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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| razzmatazz wrote: |
| At the end of the day, it is obvious that my criticisms are not welcome in Canuck land. I will from here on out endeavour to avoid commentary in the Canucks forum that is in any way derisive of the team. If the Canuck fans on this board are as self-depricating as you suggest, then I look forward to sitting back and merely watching the intelligent, balanced debate about the pros and cons of the hockey franchise in this fair city... |
Here we are, playing the martyr card again, even though I just explained how that's bullshit. As you've noticed yourself, the problem is only with your posts -- not critical posts (of which there are tons), and not posts of other non-fans (of which there are a few). Look above, there's a "rant" thread right there. Look at the title of THIS THREAD...! And to say that fans are invariably positive about this team is not only deadly inaccurate -- have you been to this forum before? -- but also hilariously ironic in light of the far more obvious cheerleading that you do in the Boston forum.
You keep inventing the same martyrdom story -- give it up, you are not being oppressed for your views. Try visiting the Oiler forum on HFBoards if you want to see what that's like. You are being asked to stop posting in every last thread with the single goal of restating one thing: you like the Bruins and you dislike the Canucks. We know. We've known it for a long time. Your likes and dislikes do not form the basis of hockey analysis.
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razzmatazz
Go Habs Go! Vive le CH!
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 1826
Location: Burnaby, B.C.
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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Oh for chrissakes now instead of "quit dumping on the Canucks" it's back to "quit mentioning the Bruins in our forum". Or is it both? I can't tell anymore nor do I care.
Jyrki you are hellbent on supressing any critical commentary of your beloved team. No doubt you will answer that Canuck fans are their own team's biggest critics. But that's precisely my point - as long as the criticism comes from within, it's ok. But when it comes from outside the inner circle, it must be worthy of condemnation.
You might as well just meld this site with canucks.com, because pretty soon you will have nothing but Vancouver fans here talking about how wonderful Daniel Rahimi and Sergei Topol will be in a few years - they are, after all, only 20.
The touchiness about points of view that do not accord with your own is disappointing. Many other posters on here simply take my arguments on directly. You prefer to unfairly attack my logic and/or motives. Drone on all you want about how I "don't get it"; what I get is that I don't have to put up with your crap. See ya. |
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Jyrki21
Rebel Sell + Moneyball = Life
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 2018
Location: Ottawa, ON
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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| razzmatazz wrote: |
Oh for chrissakes now instead of "quit dumping on the Canucks" it's back to "quit mentioning the Bruins in our forum". Or is it both? I can't tell anymore nor do I care.
Jyrki you are hellbent on supressing any critical commentary of your beloved team. No doubt you will answer that Canuck fans are their own team's biggest critics. But that's precisely my point - as long as the criticism comes from within, it's ok. But when it comes from outside the inner circle, it must be worthy of condemnation.
You might as well just meld this site with canucks.com, because pretty soon you will have nothing but Vancouver fans here talking about how wonderful Daniel Rahimi and Sergei Topol will be in a few years - they are, after all, only 20. |
You are not listening. I have explained to you several times how it has nothing to do with the Canucks and it has nothing to do with what team's fan the criticism is coming from. So have non-Canuck fans. I'd be all over you for doing exactly the same thing you do to the Columbus Blue Jackets -- the fact that you keep falling back to the victim-for-your-views card in spite of what is repeatedly explained to you is tiresome, and you're yet to address what I've actually said. It has nothing to do with being critical of the team -- it has everything to do with trolling: posting when you're not interested in adding anything constructive, but merely restating in yet another form that you like X and don't like Y. Trolling makes discussions annoying to read, for everyone.
You are choosing not to listen because it's more convenient to blame it on a clash of allegiances. It is very obviously your behavior which is annoying people, not your allegiance. How many more times need it be said? I'll say it again: When the ENTIRE intention of a post is to reiterate that you like something or dislike something, over and over again, it does not add to a discussion. It is something that everybody already knows.
But listen Razz, I am calling a truce. You have always been, and still are, welcome to comment anywhere. I am asking, as many of us (by no means just me) often have, that if you want to post, please contribute to the discussion. Posting in every last thread, to get in the same old point, is really not necessary, and this is what annoys people. We've made this request a number of times before, sometimes you've complied, sometimes less so. So I am asking once again, nothing more.
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razzmatazz
Go Habs Go! Vive le CH!
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 1826
Location: Burnaby, B.C.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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It's silly for any of us to be fighting on a board that is supposed to be fun. We're going to have to agree to disagree on what we've been talking about, because I think you're being unfair and you think I'm just posting to reiterate that I don't like the Canucks.
I think the obvious solution is for me to stay out of the Canucks forum, and refrain from commenting on that team. That seems to be where 90% of the discord comes from. So, I'll continue to post in all other forums, and I certainly welcome comment from Canuck fans in the Bruins forum, but as of now, I'm just going to stay the hell away from somewhere I'm clearly not welcome.
And just for clarity, I don't hold anything against any of the Nucker posters for this resolution, nor against you Jyrki. You continue to do a fine job of running this board, and perhaps we will all get along better elsewhere on these boards... |
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