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Bell Centre Ghost
Haunting the Bell Centre since 2005
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 536
Location: Guelph
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 Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:26 pm Post subject: Guy Carbonneau |
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There's alot of reaction to the Habs seasonal slide in the standings, including the desire to can Carbo for all the bad things he's been doing to the team. That's the usual approach to sports - name all the bad shit.
So here's my only question - what good things has Carbonneau done with the team?
My take - I can't think of much. The early success can be attributed to the fact that the support staff gets to work with the team for more hours in pre-season than during the season. I don't see any development with the young players. And we know the stories on line combinations and locker room dynamics.
There is a definite sense of character and owning up to one's mistakes on this team, and I'll give that to Carbo. Kovy alone earns him some props. But after that - I'm really at a loss. And it kinda bugs me, because Carbo was one of my favorite players in the 80's. Soo.... can anyone else help me out here? What is Carbo doing well?
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The fans represent the soul of the organization. This is their team. Us, we simply try to make it better. They tell us when things are going good, and when they are less so. We don't always give them the impression that we are listening, but we are. |
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saskhab
'03-'04 Goalie Profiles Coming Soon!
Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 3000
Location: Saskatoon!
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| Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know how much he had to do with it, but Plekanec and Komisarek have improved immensely since Carbo was the coach, in particular Plekanec. And I do think Latendresse has been handled well. He seems to be able to build up some player's confidence. It's clear that he's not getting through to a certain segment of the Habs, and what's baffling considering the coach is that it's the grinders/role players he seems to have issues with. Really, with Gainey, Carbo, and Jarvis all on board, you'd think we'd have the best 3rd and 4th lines and a top end PK unit. I don't know what's going on there.
Carbo has shown some results. Having a good record on the road is usually the sign of a well-coached, well-prepared, well-disciplined team. We'll see if that holds up. It's still a small sample size for this season. Because this team is a bit Jeckell and Hyde right now and I can't imagine this road superiority and home mediocrity trend continue over the long haul. One will give first. Whichever does might determine whether the coach has his message going through to the team or not.
As far as the line juggling goes, it's pretty drastic at times, and it seems we all have answers. Fact is, he does have 2 guys that he was counting on being first liners that are dogging it right now. If we had a superstar we could afford to have only 3 or 4 producing offensive players. We don't. We need 6, to go along with production from the back end.
_________________
"Oh my God. There she is. Lovely Sally Slater. I should speak to her. But what the hell can I say? Anything that doesn't mention that I masturbate over her memory is probably a good idea."
- Mark Corrigan, Peep Show |
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E.L.3000
Big in Japan
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 1373
Location: Finger?
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| Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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Carbo and Gainey will last longer than the veterans on this team. It's not productive to direct our ire at the coaching staff.
_________________
The Love Guru is a comedy like the Leafs are a hockey team. - G&M's Rick Groen
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Stinky
Woman of Color of the Post
Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 821
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| Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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the Rags sucked untill they ditched a certain russian sniper...
_________________
The crowd once again showed its IQ level when it shouted ``U-S-A, U-S-A,'' during the fight. Their hero, Downie, is from Newmarket, Ont. |
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saskhab
'03-'04 Goalie Profiles Coming Soon!
Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 3000
Location: Saskatoon!
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| Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Stinky wrote: |
| the Rags sucked untill they ditched a certain russian sniper... |
New goal: get Jagr, Lundqvist.
_________________
"Oh my God. There she is. Lovely Sally Slater. I should speak to her. But what the hell can I say? Anything that doesn't mention that I masturbate over her memory is probably a good idea."
- Mark Corrigan, Peep Show |
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Stinky
Woman of Color of the Post
Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 821
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| saskhab wrote: |
| Stinky wrote: |
| the Rags sucked untill they ditched a certain russian sniper... |
New goal: get Jagr, Lundqvist. |
They had Jager and Kovy at the same time...
_________________
The crowd once again showed its IQ level when it shouted ``U-S-A, U-S-A,'' during the fight. Their hero, Downie, is from Newmarket, Ont. |
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saskhab
'03-'04 Goalie Profiles Coming Soon!
Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 3000
Location: Saskatoon!
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:22 am Post subject: |
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Beliveau on the team's struggles:
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It’s the task of the team’s seasoned players, the Hall of Famer and 10-time Stanley Cup winner adds, to make adjustments to accommodate the younger talent.
“I remember (coach) Toe Blake one day told me, ‘Jean, I think I’ll put all the youngsters coming up with you,’ ” Béliveau said. “That was fine with me. I centred Gilles Tremblay, Fergy (John Ferguson), Bobby Rousseau, Yvan Cournoyer and Dick Duff, who was a little older.
“Every time I had a new winger, I told him, ‘It’s not up to you to change your style, it’s up to me to adjust mine. I’m the veteran. Play your own style. That’s what brought you to the NHL.’ ” |
That's kind of been my vantage point... just like last year. The vets have really been the primary reason the ship has sunk/is sinking. IMO, we only have 3 vets who really have embraced this concept this year: Kovalev, Hamrlik, and Huet. The vast majority of the rest seem paranoid that their job is on the line... Saku included.
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To have the salvation of the Canadiens dropped in the crease of rookie goalie Carey Price is entirely unreasonable, Béliveau believes.
“The last time we were in the playoffs (in 2005-06), it was Cristobal Huet who put us there,” he said. “If you’re going to have problems with your goalies now (Huet is recovering from a groin injury and Price is playing like a promising rookie who’s learning on the job), it makes your position a lot
worse.
“I’ve seen Price facing 35 to 40, sometimes more shots per game. I’ve said all along, ‘The poor kid, if he’s going to get that many, there are going to be nights when he won’t stop them all.” |
Couldn't agree more.
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He’ll also question the depth of toughness on the team, which he says can ill afford to lose a pillar like defenceman Mike Komisarek for 17 minutes as happened during Saturday’s 5-1 drubbing by Carolina.
“I’ve always thought that one of the reasons for our success has been our speed, that we were a better skating team than most,” Béliveau said.
“I’m not going to talk about (last Tuesday’s) Detroit game. We were outplayed in every part of that. But Nashville (three nights earlier) was faster than we were, and most of the teams we play are at least as fast. We don’t have the skating edge on others that we once did.”
On line shuffling: “I suppose Carbonneau has just been trying to find the right combinations. You must ask, does he really have the players to stay with on one line for a longer time?”
On toughness: “On the whole, we look a little small. While I’ve respected Carbonneau’s philosophy about not having one or two big guys, it’s funny – I remember one of the reasons we lost the Cup from 1961-64 after having won five straight was because we were manhandled. So (GM) Frank Selke brought in Fergy and Ted Harris from the American league, and traded a little earlier for Lou Fontinato.” |
One thing I'll say about toughness and line shuffling... we simply don't have the talent to ice goons. To ice a goon, you have to be prepared to give some forwards extra minutes.
We have 4th liners playing 3rd line minutes, which is a big issue to me. It's part of the reason that we end up folding late in games, blowing leads. I'd like to have more players as tough as Begin and Kostopolous, but frankly those two guys shouldn't play a second more than 10 minutes a night.
If we're getting tough players, the first thing we need to know is if they can play significant minutes. Komisarek is a great example used by Beliveau... we need more Komisarek type tough guys right now.
But the simpler answer has nothing to do with toughness... we need more players that can play significant minutes. If we simply had just that, we could sprinkle our depth players with goons.
_________________
"Oh my God. There she is. Lovely Sally Slater. I should speak to her. But what the hell can I say? Anything that doesn't mention that I masturbate over her memory is probably a good idea."
- Mark Corrigan, Peep Show |
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saskhab
'03-'04 Goalie Profiles Coming Soon!
Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 3000
Location: Saskatoon!
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:58 am Post subject: |
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http://wwwrealitycheckeyesontheprize.blogspot.com/2007/12/why-blaming-coach-is-giant-step.html
I've kind of come to a similar conclusion. If tactics were the #1 problem with team, I'd be calling for Guy's head. I don't think tactics are the top problem with this team. I can't blame Guy for key veterans underpreforming, causing him to make drastic changes to the lineup.
Confidence is a huge issue right now.
_________________
"Oh my God. There she is. Lovely Sally Slater. I should speak to her. But what the hell can I say? Anything that doesn't mention that I masturbate over her memory is probably a good idea."
- Mark Corrigan, Peep Show |
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Bell Centre Ghost
Haunting the Bell Centre since 2005
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 536
Location: Guelph
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:29 am Post subject: |
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You've made points I hadn't thought of, sask. I can sorta see how a coach is influential in road games in terms of discipline (focus and approach). I wonder if having the last line change at home is more indicative of his coaching prowness tho.
Latendresse is a great example of Carbo working well with the youth. Lats was and is under a lot of pressure to succeed and Carbo has dealt with that very well, showing Lats the other facets of the game, what it takes to be an intense player, and dealing with public expectations.
On that note, I wonder about a couple of other things. Is Carbo learning how to deal with the entire team, or forcing the team to adapt to him. This is neither bad nor good necessarily. The reason I bring this up is your last point sask - confidence. I completely agree that this is a team that is lacking confidence, and it's not surprising given its reliance on youth (the vets not producing I completely agree - but I'll mention that later). It also makes sense that this would show up at home, where the pressure is more direct, and therefore greater. Switching lines constantly is a poor way to build confidence because despite the odd (and erratic) examples of trusting youth e.g. Gorges, it's a bad way to build comfort within a team. Despite the thoughts of the Honourable Beliveau, I've mentioned his line changing before, and the more I think about it, the more I think Carbo should stop doing it. This method is obviously not working. IIRC, he mainly switches the vets around with a bit of youth moving around. That's fine, but I wonder if it is still mainly conveying too much doubt in his team and what that effect is within the locker room, where the leaders i.e. vets, are probably in a sour mood. Essentially - I question his ability to build "a team" and how the fact that it's a young team effects that ability.
Team depth - I kept in mind the play of the vets when I watched this game and I've come to one conclusion. Koivu is no longer an untouchable with me. I think I've given him a lot of slack because of his battle with cancer. But you guys are right, he's not a #1. Unfortunately, we don't have a number 1 and so if we could somehow get a number 1 (Marleau... maybe, but... i dunno), I think we may have to put the future of the team ahead of Koivu.  If it's team talent, then the spotlight turns to Gainey. For the record, I have wondered about Gainey, in passing. But I give him a HUGE break after losing a daughter not 1 year ago, as well as seeing his ability to a) keep the Montreal media at bay, b) dump contracts when necessary, and c) building an excellent scouting staff. I still think that that will eventually produce results on-ice. It also increases expectations on Carbo.
On the upside with Carbo (apart from what you mentioned sask), he seems to be picking up some pointers from Muller (who, btw, I think would make a great coach for a young team) and actually encouraged the team tonight in the 3rd. It also seemed his line matchups seems to often come out in his favour tonight - although McGuire would have you think it was just luck  And of course, he is still a newbie, and by no means have I given up on the guy i.e. firing him would be a huge mistake. The Habs are floundering for a few reasons and Carbo is just one of them.
_________________
The fans represent the soul of the organization. This is their team. Us, we simply try to make it better. They tell us when things are going good, and when they are less so. We don't always give them the impression that we are listening, but we are. |
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