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Hounsy
Reigning King of One-Liners
Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 1247
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 Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:59 am Post subject: Sundin worth IF traded? |
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Interesting stuff
http://www.thestar.com/Sports/Hockey/article/292233
would love to add Edmonton's(via Ducks) first round pick to go with our own. Given the recent History of impact players being moved the Leafs could give a nice kick start to the rebuilding process with a Sundin move.
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Jyrki21
Rebel Sell + Moneyball = Life
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 1856
Location: Ottawa, ON
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:23 am Post subject: |
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Leaf fans will freak out, but they should do it. (I hope they don't, of course, as it will surely be to some Western Conference already-powerhouse). e very well may just sign back with them in the off-season.
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Hounsy
Reigning King of One-Liners
Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 1247
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| Jyrki21 wrote: |
| Leaf fans will freak out, but they should do it. (I hope they don't, of course, as it will surely be to some Western Conference already-powerhouse). e very well may just sign back with them in the off-season. |
Nucks could be a good fit any idea on how they view rentals? I guess he does have the potential as they say to "tip the balance of power" so the bidding could get competitive. I wonder if you need to worry about trading someone like Sundin within conference? He'll likely be back anyway.
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It's not you Sundin, it's me...please just leave...and don't look back....please please do not look back. |
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the New Cunning Linguist
Like a good neighbor, but not
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 1666
Location: I'm here, aren't I?
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:36 am Post subject: |
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| Hounsy wrote: |
| Jyrki21 wrote: |
| Leaf fans will freak out, but they should do it. (I hope they don't, of course, as it will surely be to some Western Conference already-powerhouse). e very well may just sign back with them in the off-season. |
Nucks could be a good fit any idea on how they view rentals? I guess he does have the potential as they say to "tip the balance of power" so the bidding could get competitive. I wonder if you need to worry about trading someone like Sundin within conference? He'll likely be back anyway. |
With BMo on IR and their need for more scoring from anyone not named Sedin, I would agree, but then I can see Colorado going after him, too, if Forsberg signs elsewhere; I think, though, that Colorado needs better d all around - as Av said yesterday, it's not scoring that that team needs, it's better d.
Would San Jose be willing to part with some assets to get some more secondary scoring? They keep denying that Marleau is available but he's done jack for the kind of money he's pulling down.
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Hounsy
Reigning King of One-Liners
Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 1247
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:41 am Post subject: |
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| the New Cunning Linguist wrote: |
| willing to part with some assets to get some more secondary scoring? They keep denying that Marleau is available but he's done jack for the kind of money he's pulling down. |
I don't think the Leafs would want a Marleau type salary back if they plan to resign Sundin again.
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the New Cunning Linguist
Like a good neighbor, but not
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 1666
Location: I'm here, aren't I?
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:45 am Post subject: |
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Nonis hasn't made any big deadline acquisitions for impact players - he tends to shop in the "Used" bargain bins rather than the "Pre-owned" aisle. He might sniff around but I'd be surprised if he traded some players or prospects (razz will tell you they have none). I think Krajicek, BXA and Mitchell might be the ones without NTCs - Kracijek probably won't interest you, BXA is injured and likely won't be available in time, and Mitchell is not going anywhere (I would hope).
As for prospects, I don't think DN would part with Bourdon or Schneider (even tho the latter is struggling in the A) for Sundin; Jaffray is a possibility but I don't know that that would be nearly enough to outbid other teams. I would hope they don't trade Raymond or Grabner - this team needs more footspeed generally. Really, about the only things that DN can offer is Krajicek, Cooke, Jaffray and some other AHL-types... Hence the bargain basement shopping experience.
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... Because the old one, is well, old.
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Bosc Ulrich II
OTP Resident Historian
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 3222
Location: Sweetest lid in the league
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Jyrki21 wrote: |
| Leaf fans will freak out, but they should do it. |
Not if they're out of the playoff race, they won't. I think that they'd freak on JFJ for not getting something if he could have when they're out of the playoff race.
If the expectation is that Toronto would get something along the lines of what Philly got for Forsberg, then these packagescould be accurate. However, these are still "What I would trade Sundin to x for", and not "what I think a deal would entail that would make sense for both teams." Ottawa is giving up 3 roster players in Healey's proposal. I simply can't see that happening unless they really do need to free up a whole bunch of salary.
Detroit's proposal may be accurate, because the major assets going the other way are the picks and prospect. However if Detroit does swing a deal, I could see them giving up a forward prospect close to being ready, simply because Holland rarely, if at all, deals roster players for rentals. A defensive prospect like Smith who may be a few years away makes sense for the Leafs, but not a roster defenseman. The Leafs have enough of those. I think they'd be looking for a forward, and Detroit would be looking at trading a prospect and not a roster player.
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Av-merican
Un-Tenured Professor of Hockey
Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 1994
Location: Denver
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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I think even the most irrational of Leafers would welcome an admission by management that this team isn't going anywhere as currently comprised. What's his worth? Hmmmmm...A decent prospect and a pick, nothing more. I wouldn't necessarily mind Mats returning to his original franchise (we could actually use him, with Sakic and Smyth out our offense sucks just as bad as our defense right now, especially on the man-advantage) but I doubt we could re-sign him in the offseason. If it meant parting with one of our more marginal prospects, like T.J. Hensick, I'd probably do it. If all JFJ asked for in return was a third rounder and Tyler Arnason, I'd most definitely do it, even if it meant Sundin was just a rental.
Even better would be an admission by ownership that the management sucks. Wait, they already did that. I mean admission by ownership that the management STILL sucks. |
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Bosc Ulrich II
OTP Resident Historian
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 3222
Location: Sweetest lid in the league
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Av-merican wrote: |
I think even the most irrational of Leafers would welcome an admission by management that this team isn't going anywhere as currently comprised. What's his worth? Hmmmmm...A decent prospect and a pick, nothing more. I wouldn't necessarily mind Mats returning to his original franchise (we could actually use him, with Sakic and Smyth out our offense sucks just as bad as our defense right now, especially on the man-advantage) but I doubt we could re-sign him in the offseason. If it meant parting with one of our more marginal prospects, like T.J. Hensick, I'd probably do it. If all JFJ asked for in return was a third rounder and Tyler Arnason, I'd most definitely do it, even if it meant Sundin was just a rental.
Even better would be an admission by ownership that the management sucks. Wait, they already did that. I mean admission by ownership that the management STILL sucks. |
Based on the market last year, Sundin should command more than a pick and a decent prospect. And if the playoff races are so close with not as many teams out, the amount of rentals available could be even smaller and drive up the price even further.
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Hounsy
Reigning King of One-Liners
Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 1247
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Av-merican wrote: |
| What's his worth? Hmmmmm...A decent prospect and a pick, nothing more. |
Given the recent rental deals of Weight, Tkachuk, and Forsberg I would have to think he is worth more than that. I would have to think Sundin to have the greater value now than those players did at the time of there deals.
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the New Cunning Linguist
Like a good neighbor, but not
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 1666
Location: I'm here, aren't I?
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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I'd throw LI into that as well - they're having all kinds of problems scoring, and from GM Garth Snow's comments, he'd be willing to give up the other half of the farm again to put them over the top.
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... Because the old one, is well, old.
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Jyrki21
Rebel Sell + Moneyball = Life
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 1856
Location: Ottawa, ON
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Hounsy wrote: |
| Nucks could be a good fit any idea on how they view rentals? I guess he does have the potential as they say to "tip the balance of power" so the bidding could get competitive. I wonder if you need to worry about trading someone like Sundin within conference? He'll likely be back anyway. |
As mentioned by tCL, the Canucks are not high-rollers when it comes to rentals. Their larger historical deadline deals (all under Pat Quinn) were "hockey trades" for non-rentals (Courtnall/Ronning/Momesso, Brown/Hedican, Näslund, Morrison, etc.). I'm trying to think if they've ever acquired a big-name rental and I don't think they have.
Bieksa will still be injured over the deadline so it's unlikely he'd be moved, although if Toronto is truly out of the race they may not care (he's under contract for the next three years). He would quickly become a fan favorite, and he's from the Hamilton area, too. Krajicek is a better asset than tCL is making him out to be and may very well be involved in any deal the Canucks choose to make with anyone, but if the Leafs don't want D-men then that's another issue. (And tCL: Mitchell has a no-trade clause, even if he were touchable).
The problem is that pretty much anyone is going to ask for Edler back in a rental situation, and Nonis won't do it unless the team is acquiring the Stanley Cup itself in return.
Unlike Linger, I do think Nonis would be more willing to part with one of Bourdon or, especially, Schneider. Upon the acquisition of Luongo I predicted Schneider would be dealt in either year 2 or 3 of Luongo's contract -- he's too tempting an asset not to use when your immediate game-plan is to re-sign Luongo for life. Whether the Leafs want a goalie prospect or not is another matter (at this stage Pogge is slightly more proven), but he's by no means untouchable.
Bourdon is slightly less touchable, but if the right deal came along, Nonis would move him much more quickly than Edler, for example. However, I don't foresee the Canucks making a move big enough (i.e. Sundin) that this would actually come into play.
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Bosc Ulrich II
OTP Resident Historian
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 3222
Location: Sweetest lid in the league
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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Given the defensemen and their prices that the Leafs already have under contract, I can't see them acquiring Bieksa.
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Alabama Man
Now with 30% more rage!
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 649
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think ownership is going to give Garth Snow the ok to make another "win now" deal based on how the Smyth trade panned out last season.
As for Sundin, he certainly will bring comparable (if not more) on what the likes of Tkachuk, Smyth, Forsberg, etc. brought last year in trade. I am however uncomfortable with the notion of Fergusson carrying out such a deal - he too is likely going to have a "win now" attitude just by virtue of job security!
Obstacle #2, Sundin reportedly is being a bitch & doesn't want to go anywhere.
This move HAS to be done - Sundin is free & clear to come back for the '08 - '09 season.
It will also be nice if they could move some other bodies off this squad as well.
I will of course be routing for the Ducks tonight ... It will be great if Toronto can have 2 of the 1st 10 picks in this year's draft. (If you don't recall, they don't have a 2nd round pick as of now ... Y. Perrault deal, rememeber?  ... Fergusson is such a freakin' knob!)
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Hounsy
Reigning King of One-Liners
Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 1247
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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maybe JFJ can pull a Sundin + 1st for Emery?
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It's not you Sundin, it's me...please just leave...and don't look back....please please do not look back. |
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Bosc Ulrich II
OTP Resident Historian
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 3222
Location: Sweetest lid in the league
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Hounsy wrote: |
| maybe JFJ can pull a Sundin + 1st for Emery? |
Emery+Raycroft+Toskala 
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saskhab
'03-'04 Goalie Profiles Coming Soon!
Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 3417
Location: Saskatoon!
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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Gill's only got one season left, I could see the Leafs inquiring about a Bieksa type.
Think Burke would part with Edmonton's 1st rounder to nab Sundin?
EDIT: Helps to notice other people's comments on the issue.
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"Oh my God. There she is. Lovely Sally Slater. I should speak to her. But what the hell can I say? Anything that doesn't mention that I masturbate over her memory is probably a good idea."
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Bosc Ulrich II
OTP Resident Historian
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 3222
Location: Sweetest lid in the league
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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Mackenzie weighs in in:
http://www.tsn.ca/tsn_talent/columnists/bob_mckenzie
| Quote: |
We know all that. But we also know that if Sundin were to be made available and was prepared to waive his no-trade, well, we know he would fetch quite a price.
It is hard to imagine a more impactful, dominant, productive and reasonably healthy rental than what Sundin would be.
Sundin this year would be far more attractive than an ailing Peter Forsberg was last year and Forsberg netted the Philadelphia Flyers a solid player in Scottie Upshall, a very good prospect in Ryan Parent as well as first-round and third-round draft picks.
The price on Keith Tkachuk was a first, a second and a third round pick. On Ryan Smyth, it was two prospects - Robert Nilsson and Ryan O'Marra - and a first rounder. Heck, an injured Todd Bertuzzi got Florida a good prospect in Shawn Matthias and a second round pick.
Sundin, if he were made available, would blow all of those right out of the water. If the Leafs didn't get two or three credible players or prospects and the same number of significant draft choices, John Ferguson would be accused of not doing his job.
Which, funny enough, is what some people will say if the Leafs don't try to make a Sundin trade happen before the deadline. |
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E.L.3000
Big in Japan
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 1576
Location: MTL Police: stay out ma bizness
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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I just don't see the hydra approving a Mats trade, largely because the hope of even two playoff gates would be enough to warrant keeping him in their eyes.
They view the team as one who almost made the playoffs last year, and with Vesa playing well should contend for a playoff spot again.
There's no way JFJ can move Sundin without unanimous support from the board. That vote won't be coming.
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Hounsy
Reigning King of One-Liners
Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 1247
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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I guess the hope is that holding out on a prayer two years running and still missing the dance will make them see investing a little in the future as a good business choice.
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